How to have meaningful conversations with the men you're worried about

We already know that. Let's cut the chase. So what we wanna do instead is I'm gonna introduce a concept, this is really, really general. In fact, it's generalized, it's over-simplified, but we'll go into it in more depth, I'm sure, throughout this conversation. But if I had to take everything that I know about the science regarding the topic and all my experience, which is now coaching hundreds of men over thousands of separate coaching calls, plus my lived experience as a man, and I had to cram all that into one massively over-simplified sentence, it would be that while positive female mental health is about feeling connected, positive male mental health is about feeling capable. And I'm going to explain some of the reasoning behind that. But I think that that is a fantastic thing for us to bear in mind. I'm not saying that women don't need to feel capable, or that men don't need to feel connected. I'm saying the skew is different. And without getting into experience and lived experience, if we were to just look at what we know about some hormones, for example, so oxytocin, which is often known as the cuddle hormone, the love hormone, it comes from bonding with others, it comes from crying, it comes from connecting with others. Well, oxytocin has been found to pretty significantly reduce stress in female mammals and in women. And so this means that lots of women, when they touch, when they cry, when they talk about how they feel, it can be natural, because it reduces stress by releasing oxytocin, it can be natural then to assume that if men were to do the same thing, it would have the same impact. However, and I'm sure we'll talk about this in some detail, there are reasons to believe that oxytocin doesn't reduce stress in men in the same way as it does in women. In fact, outside of our species, oxytocin has very different effects on male and female mammals. So what does consistently reduce stress in males? Well, it's serotonin and it's testosterone, and they're both hormones that fluctuate wildly based on how capable men feel. And we spoke about a little while ago, you know, when we did the first episode, we spoke about how like testosterone fluctuates just from men watching a football game on TV. They're not even there. They don't even have to be playing. Just seeing their team win boosts testosterone levels. So these hormones fluctuate wildly and very quickly, and they reduce stress when they go in the right direction. This is something we can tap into when we're supporting the men that we care about by creating an environment that makes them feel capable rather than challenging their capability. That's the most, that's the headline level thing that we need to establish. Wow.

I mean, that's quite a profound statement. So for me to slightly unpack that, I'd always understood, there's a few things, and then you touched on this in huge detail on the first podcast, which by the way, I think it was the 12th episode. Anyone that's not seen it is a really fantastic deep dive into testosterone and its impact on male health. You touched at that time on the importance of when men feel like they're winning. You've referenced it there when they watch their own football team. Of course, I'm aware of studies with the Brazilian Italian football fans, quite a small study, but one that's quite interesting. Similar studies with Cambridge rowers and US laborers that were randomly given a small cash prize. Some were, some weren't, for a piece of work, they did. Although they're only small studies, they seem to show that when men believe they've won, because the Cambridge rowing test was a rigged test, they just believe they won. They hadn't actually won. There is quite a spike in testosterone, and as you know, as you're working, higher levels of testosterone is really good for guys in terms of their physical well-being, mental well-being. So is the capable thing, is that linked to this sense of winning basically? Because for me, like if I'm capable, that's almost like I've got this covered. I can do, not necessarily I have one, but yeah, I'm just unpacking that slightly. What do you think that's linked to this capable thing?

I think there's a lot to it, right? We both know there's a lot to it. Capability is not the same as winning, but they are related. And perhaps that can make you feel more capable.

Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. When we, and as you rightly say, I know you've said this in conversation, when you have achieved a goal, you are obviously going to think you're capable of that thing, whatever the goal was, however small it was. When you have won at something, of course, then your sense of capability will therefore build. So you talk about capability as a bottom line understanding. I think that's a great way to go into a conversation. I know you mentioned a three step framework for conversation. I think it's really helpful people have frameworks that they could use if they were struggling. So what? Tell me about that.

Yeah, so the three step strategy for helping men is something we go into quite a lot of detail in, in the book that's coming out very shortly. But what I want to do is in case you don't get to read it, anyone that's watching, I want to give you a bit of an overview of this three step strategy, because what's quite interesting, I think, Andrew, is I used to believe that through the coaching experience I had, I was able to support anyone during a crisis, during a time of need, that sort of thing. And then in about late 2023, when I started attending formal mental health training, I realized, oh gosh, I'm not actually able to support anyone. What I was doing was highly specialized for men. It was really tailored for men. And when I was attending generic mental health training, when we were doing role play exercises, I was a bit too direct and a bit too pushy. I was described as being a bit of a bully on some of the training courses I was doing. And I was thinking, but I'm doing what, in my experience, works really, really well, which is be direct, ask the right questions. And so what I learned from that, I came away a bit shaken. And what I learned from that is that there are different ways of supporting people. And there's a bit of a one size fits all approach that we're often taught, which I'll go into, but we might sometimes need to have a second tool available in order to support the men that we care about. So I'm going to talk through what the generic approach is, and then how we can tailor it to men. Would that work?

Yeah, absolutely.

So the generic approach often to support others is something like, here's your three steps. First, you ask, like, how are you? Is everything OK? I've noticed something's different. What's wrong? Two is you listen, as in zip it, let the other person talk, let them share how they feel. And then three is you validate how they feel. You say something like, I can see where you feel that way. That must be so difficult. And it seems to me that this approach is based around that oxytocin raising model of supporting connection. We are both here together. I'm listening to you. You're feeling nice and connected. So it's great for supporting connection, but I'm going to suggest that we also need a tool to very quickly support capability that has to be at least as effective as that supporting connection model. So these are the three steps that I would suggest we need to support capability. So number one is we need to focus on the person we're supporting. We need to focus on their or his strengths. So rather than coming to you and saying something like, Andrew, I'm worried about you. What does that say about your capability if I'm worried about you?

Yeah, it suggests that you're in a bit of a pickle, and that maybe you don't have the power to get out of that.

Yeah. But what about, Andrew, you're one of the most capable and reliable people I know, but I've noticed lately that something's different. What's on your mind?

Yeah, you see, that, for me, would work, and I myself have a real thing about this, and this is where you're saying, in fairness to you, that it has to be tailored to the person. As long as it is sincere, rather than the generic, you're capable. I feel like if they were able to say something that evidenced why they feel I'm capable, you're capable, you do this and that, notice this about you, then for me, then that comment has credibility. So for me, I think if, I absolutely think it's a good start, and I think if I could believe that the person really means that, then yeah, I think it's a great way to start.

I'm with you there. I think that authenticity, just as when we're doing Ask, Listen, Validate, authenticity is such an important part of it. Because when I'm leading a workshop and we're doing training for professionals, then what we would look at, or parents or teachers, we would look at different circumstances and we'd look at how to tailor it to the individual situation. Because the best thing you can do is pick up on something that he knows he's capable of. So step number one is we're going to say something, we're going to focus on strengths. You are great at this, but lately I've noticed a difference. That's going to open the conversation. It's going to create this space where he knows his capability is not being challenged. Now we can move on to step two, which is you're going to identify his goals. Because if we start to have a conversation around life changes that aren't based on his goals, that's called nagging.

Yeah.

So we're going to align it to his goals. Well, the way we're going to do that is with open questions. There are so many questions I'd love to share. However, on a podcast format, you don't want a list of questions. But one of the best questions would be something like the miracle question. It's called in solutions based short therapy, which is something along the lines of if you woke up tomorrow and things were suddenly better, what would have changed? And the nice thing about this is it's very open because it's a what question. Essentially, what's doing the lifting is the what. But it's also future focused. So it's not saying what's wrong. It's just saying miracle situation. You wake up tomorrow and things are better. Tell me what's changed. Well, whatever he tells you, they are some goals that you can work on together. Now you have those goals. The third step is to explore his solutions, not your ideas. Just as when you're doing ask, listen, validate, it's not about telling people what you would do. It's about taking a coaching approach and helping people discover what are their solutions that are available to them. So the simple thing is just to change gears between goals and solutions is just to ask, what could you do about it? It's a really simple gear change and now we're in the realm of practical solutions. And what I found as well is when you are able to support capability in this way, what happens is when men learn that a conversation with you about problems turns into a discussion around solutions, they come back to you next time they have an issue if they want some support because it's practical support, or they get into the flow of it and they just start realizing what you're doing and then they solve more problems themselves. And the one key thing here is I'm not saying black and white, this is the approach for men and this is the approach for women. That would be as bad as just having a one size fits all approach. Maybe a little bit more tailored, but you know, in the same ballpark. But the key thing is how do you know which approach to use? You just ask the person that you're supporting. So at the very beginning of the conversation, something like I would love to support you with this. Sometimes it's good just to be heard and sometimes it's good to have a conversation around solutions. What would be most useful for you right now? And then let the person you're supporting tell you the problem is often when men reach out for help, they're looking for practical solutions, but what they're getting is they're being listened to, people are validating how they feel, but they're not getting the practical solutions.

Because that's what I was always taught, you know, men want solutions, women want to be listened to, and I feel like that's quite simplistic. But there could be traits and elements of that, I suppose. I mean, everyone's different, there's always exceptions. To every rule, but to put that into three, then, what I'm hearing from you, if you could sort of put it into sort of almost three short words, you got a statement about capability, a goal with that miracle question, but get them thinking about where they might want to be tomorrow, what might have changed, with a really open, insightful question, such as the one that you said, and then try to get them thinking about how they're going to make that happen. So they're thinking about their solutions, so you're not giving them a to-do list. So that's the three steps, isn't it? And trying that, experimenting with it, and I presume if they can't come up with any solutions, you might make some suggestions.

We can do. So yeah, the three steps, just to clarify, you're right, focus on strengths, identify his goals and explore his solutions. And what happens quite a lot in coaching conversations and in just normal supportive conversations, I find is sometimes people are genuinely stuck. And if they trust you and if they respect you and believe you might have a solution, they will sometimes say, what would you do? And now you've been invited to share what you would do in that situation. That's not to say they have to do it, but it might be part of their decision-making process, part of their creative process to hear something from you. A bit like when you want to write something and you're stuck with a blank piece of paper. So you ask ChatGPT to give you a suggestion. And when you see it, you know what's wrong with it, you know why it won't work for you, and then you edit it, right? It's a bit like that when we make suggestions to other people. It can help sometimes if they've invited it because they know it won't work for them and they know how to tweak it.

Yeah, it's a sort of capability, goals, their solutions. And I suppose what we're saying here is this is a tool in your toolbox. It's not the only way to do it, but it is an effective approach. It may be an approach that could be more helpful towards men when we think about hormones and differences. Not always, it could work with some women, I suppose, but typically this could be a good thing to use for men. I also like the fact, I'm just gonna pick up on this. So, my former marriage was violent and abusive, and I talk about that in other areas of my life. And I don't often talk about the wake up conversation that I had. And for me, alongside that three step process that you've said, it might be that before that conversation can be had effectively, some kind of direct, speaking directly to someone may have happened. Because when I was stuck in that situation, it's possible if you'd have asked me then, you know, you'd have affirmed me in my capability, asked me what my goals were with that miracle question, what would have happened to my... My answer would be that I'm a better person, that I stop upsetting my wife. I would never have seen it. But if you had that conversation with me, once I'd recognized that I was in an abusive relationship, then the magic's going to happen there. So I wonder whether also alongside that, it's a very effective tool. I like it a lot. Whether we also keep in mind that that, in certain predicaments, someone may struggle to see that predicament. And it may be that you need that direct dialogue, that you've said yourself, you're a big fan of direct dialogue, but it didn't go down so well on the course you're on.

Yeah, absolutely. While it's a shame that you went through that experience in years gone by, Andrew, the positive from it is you sharing your story can be very empowering to other people and it can help other people to understand what's happening because we've spoken about you and I in the past about sometimes when you're in the thick of it, it's all well and good reaching out for support. But if you yourself don't know what kind of situation you're in, then you do sometimes need some perspective from people who are on the outside to let you know what might be happening. And I think that's where ultimately what we're talking about so far, it is one tool, but I never refer to anything as the solution. The solution is something we build out of our tools and our skills, our mentors and our therapists and our coaches. And I think that there's what I do in my work is it's often a mixture of coaching, which is helping people find their solutions and training, which is showing people tools that they can use. And sometimes it is just giving information as well to help people recognize when they might be in a problem that's been repeated that other people have got out of. So I'm with you there.

And do you think as a framework, to me, it's an effective... I'm imagining the conversations that I have with my boys. Sometimes they're aged 12, 9 and 6 at the moment. I'm imagining that actually as a conversation framework that could work well with kids and teens. Have you had guys, mums, people that you work with say, actually, I tried this on my kid, it worked really well?

I have. If you'd have asked two years ago, I would have said that this three step strategy works, in my experience, for men. And it probably works for males over the age of about 11, because hormonal changes happen in different stages, and around 11, 12 is like when the sex hormones come online. That was my basis that it probably works around 11. But I now know I'm very wrong, because I've been delivering workshops to schools, to mental health professionals, to different kinds of people who work with young men or live with young men. And I'm regularly told now, no Ryan, you're wrong, this works really, really well on my six year old son. Things like that. So I thought based on what I knew about hormones that it probably works from age 11 onwards, but I now know I was wrong, and it seems to be useful in males of any age. And again, can be people of any age, just give them the option. Do you want me to make you feel more capable, or do you want me to make you feel more connected?

Yeah. Yeah, now that makes an awful lot of sense. The reason I'm thinking and hesitating is I'm just imagining the conversation, and I'm thinking of the conversations that have worked well to help. So my boys, my nine and 12 year old, have diving lessons off the diving boards. They're beautiful divers. They dive beautifully, which they should be, because they've been having lessons for goodness knows how long. But their issue's been taking their jumping and diving much higher, and they've really, and I've tried everything, incentivization, talking it through. But in the end, we've just cracked it, actually. They're both, one's gone off seven and a half, the other's struggling to get beyond the first board, it's just gone off the five, no problem. And some of that has been them coming up with their own solutions. All the stuff that I say, and do this, do that, talk yourself through it at the end of the board. Actually, they came up with their own solutions when we're on holiday in Madeira that enabled them to go higher. They thought things themselves and they did it. And so I do think there is something really in that, encouraging someone, asking good questions, but trying to help them to think for themselves and come up with their own solution. I could see this worked really well with kids. That doesn't surprise me. Do you... Tell me something about your book briefly, because I want to move on more generally to men. Just tell us what your book's called and when it's out. And we can maybe repeat that at the end as well.

Yeah, thank you. So the book's called How to Help Him, the book for women worried about a man. And I realized about two years ago that I was being asked after almost every talk and after almost every training I delivered, people would say, where's the book that you got this from? And I'd explain, well, you kind of have to read 1500 different sources and, you know, have lots of Zoom calls with lots of people to pull this stuff together. And eventually I thought, actually, I do need to get this into a book, but it wasn't something I'd done before. And then luckily, the publisher that I worked with asked me a couple of questions to help me to realize that the people that were asking me consistently for a book were women who were worried about a man in their life. So my publisher, Deb Jenkins, said, just write that book. Because I was trying to write a book that was for mental health professionals and for men with practical things they could do and for women supporting men, and it wasn't happening. So that's the book now. If you're a woman worried about a man, this is a book for you. It's going to explain lots of the hormonal, the social, the economic factors that impact male mental health and some really practical down to earth things that you can do on a daily basis to support the men at home and in your workplace.

Fantastic. Looking forward to that. When's it out?

It's going to be out around November 2025.

Brilliant. Okay. Well, I'm looking forward. I will definitely be reading that. Do you think in terms of conversations, we're never more connected through social media. You've no doubt heard this comment, but never more sort of isolated through social media. Do you think we're having less meaningful conversations today, perhaps, than we once were? Do you think that's why people are finding it hard to reach out to those that they love? Or is this just a common problem that we've had for centuries and millennia?

I think, while I hear a lot about the quality of conversations declining, you and I, we weren't adults 50 years ago, so it's hard for us to know. But within our lifetime, there's been a big change in terms of the introduction of mobile phones. That's massive. And then suddenly mobile phones have become this really distracting, really addictive thing that uses all these biological hacks to keep us coming back, whether it's the notifications, the bright contrasting colors. There's a really interesting little experiment that was carried out a few years ago. In the footnotes of this, we could probably include some sources so people can read the studies if they want for themselves. So what happened in this experiment was that they brought together a group of girls, so young females, and rather nastily, these girls went through a somewhat stressful experience. There's lots of safeguards in place, but it was like to do with public speaking, and I think there was some arithmetic in there. It was designed to stress them out, you know, researchers have to do this sort of thing from time to time. And then what happened is after that stressful experience, the girls had their oxytocin levels taken and their cortisol levels taken, which was a marker for stress, to see how stressed the girls were. And then they were divided into four groups and they were given different kinds of support. So one group got in-person support from their mum. Fantastic. One group got no support. They were just left on their own to watch videos until the stress went away. One group was supported by their mum over the phone so they could hear their mum's voice. And another group was supported by their mum over instant messaging. So two things won't surprise you. The group of girls that were supported by their mum, their oxytocin went up and their stress levels came down. That doesn't surprise you, does it, Andrew?

Not at all. Yeah.

The group that have received no comfort, their oxytocin levels stayed low and their stress levels stay high. Doesn't surprise you either, I imagine. But this is where it starts to get quite interesting, which is the group of girls that were supported by their mum with a phone call. So mum wasn't there, but they could hear their mum's voice. Their oxytocin levels were high, as if mum was there, and their stress levels were low, as if mum was in the room, from hearing their mum's voice. But this is where it gets, I think, really fascinating, which is the ones that had a supportive conversation with mum through an instant messenger app, their oxytocin levels were low, and their stress was high, as if they'd received no support. And this is the kind of communication that we're having now. Now, admittedly, this is carried out on girls, so we're talking females in this experiment. We can't extrapolate, I've mentioned earlier, you can't extrapolate what happens on females to what's happening with men, but what we can see is the way we communicate has a massive impact on whether or not we feel connected. And so given that the way that our society's moving is from in-person contact and from those hearing each other's voices to suddenly looking at instant messages on the screen, which some of us will do all day because of work, I think we've lost something really significant in the way humans communicate. And I think it's having probably a massive impact on what's happening inside our bodies and inside our brains. And it's very hard to know how big that impact is going to be.

Yeah, it reminds me. And I think the phone is a big issue. I feel like a lot of the smaller opportunities we once had for every day bits and pieces of conversation have gone in that, you know, so much banking now is just online, self-service checkouts in supermarkets. It feels like every area where there might have been a small weight, which meant that you had a conversation, in our desire for efficiency, there is no longer that weight, nor is there conversation. I feel like that increasingly, we don't have this smaller scale stuff either, which affects our social confidence overall. And you're talking research. I love the piece of research from Chicago, where commuters, they knew they were going to be part of this experiment. They just didn't know which group they'd fall into. So one group falls into the group where they have to strike up a conversation with someone on the metro that they don't know. And the other group could just do what they always do, and read their Kindle, stare out the window. And their happiness levels were measured before the experience. And those that could carry on just doing what they always wanted to do, their happiness levels were fine, very happy. They were so glad to be in that group. And the group that had to reach out, their happiness levels were not in a good place, because they were thinking, what the hell am I going to say? What do they think I'm a weirdo? Anyway, the experiment takes place. And of course, after the experiments, the happiness levels of those that had to strike up a conversation were much higher than those that could just carry on doing what they always do. Because actually these small snippets of conversation are good for us, they're important for us. And so I have concerns, not just from happiness, but in terms of our ability to reach out to our brother that we're worried about, our mate at work. Because our conversation is being eroded, did you rightly say mobile phone, but also more broadly speaking, society? I think it's a big problem personally, a big problem. What do you think men are looking for? Here's a question. So we've seen explosion of men's communities across the UK. We know about Men in Sheds and his Man Club. I've had the grieving point on Man v. I've had some from there on the podcast. I read something recently. I was really surprised because I always thought church numbers were dropping and they have been for years. And that's not so good for conversation either because there's loads of community that used to happen around church, whether you're religious or whether you have a faith or not. But apparently men are flocking back to church. Apparently so. What do you think is going on? What are men looking for at the moment?

I think when it comes to support and community, what organizations like a church or other religious organizations can offer, what men's clubs can offer, besides structure, which is enormously valuable for male mental health, but besides structure, I think it's a sense of purpose and feeling useful to others, because by coming along, at the very least, you're propping up the numbers. But it can be all the way up to you having a role within that organization, you supporting others through that organization. There's a really lovely piece of research from the Samaritans in 2020, where we hear a lot that men don't reach out for help and don't engage with support. And well, we can have that conversation, but let's park that for the minute. And what the Samaritans did in this 2020 research is, they spoke to men who had reached out for support, and they asked them, what was it about the support that was most engaging for you? And they found that the three things that men found most engaging when they reached out for support was, one, the opportunity to make a contribution. They wanted to feel that they were benefiting other people from being there. Two, the opportunity to feel like part of a team or to feel included. And three, it was the opportunity to work towards shared objectives, not just their own. And to me, that is a sense of purpose. It's a sense of being useful to like something greater than yourself. But lots of the support that is available to individuals when we need it, is not about making a contribution to others. It's about focusing on yourself and your own issue. It's not about feeling like a team. It's talking to one single person. And there might be, you're not always peers. It's a case of being analyzed or having things diagnosed. And working towards shared objectives, you're not always going to get that with support. So I think what the reason we're seeing this phenomenon with this drive of men into these structured organizations is yes, because of the structure, but also it's an opportunity for men to feel useful and to feel like they're part of something. And that's a really big part of feeling capable. Yeah.

Feeling like you're useful, which then leads to a sense of sort of sense of winning, making progress, learning new stuff, making connections. Yeah, interesting. I mean, I think the structure is really important. That's come across strongly in this podcast episode. For me, I feel like there are community spirits being under pressure. It's not that there are no communities, but when you think about the sheer volume of communities that were associated with working class industrial routes, from the Grime Thought Colory Band, probably the best brass band the UK has produced, to the male choirs from the mining communities, to Arsenal Football Club, came out of Munitions Factory. There's so many of these communities that were wrapped around old school industry. But, and I don't want to romanticize life back in the 40s in the mining pits. Of course not, but there was real community there that then went when sort of industry and we moved to a service-based economy. And I wonder whether there's like a trying to pick up, pick back up this sense of community. We did have it at one time. It sort of went, been eroded, and maybe men are looking for that. But I like this sense of capability as well, and support and feeling like we're winning and progressing. Maybe that is why, I mean, I think the thing with the church thing, it'd be interesting to see whether that's sustained, because that's post-COVID research. It'd be interesting to see how long that's sustained, whether that is just a one-off thing, or whether it's a long-term change. Well, tell me what's new with your work then. You have a book coming out in November. That's new. That's very exciting. Is there anything, because when I think about you, your work around male health, male well-being, physical and mental well-being, testosterone, is there anything new that you've stumbled across in the last 12 months or so that's really exciting for you as a new thing that you want to share?

Oh, that's a lovely question. One thing that's changed is now when I deliver my training on testosterone, I've actually flipped the top two ingredients over for a healthy level of testosterone. I used to say sleep, then diet, then exercise. And based on my experience over the last 12 months, since I last came on Men on Show, I flipped them over now. So I now say diet, then sleep, then exercise. Just because my own experience is diet is so much more important than sleep when it comes to testosterone production. You can't get around it just by having good quality sleep. And then the big thing, another big thing is I've actually started working quite a lot with schools and other educators in that space. And that's been really wonderful for me to, because I always assumed that this content wouldn't necessarily be relevant in schools. It's just a blind spot that I had in my imagination really. But I have found that's not the case. Outside of work, the big thing is I'm now a dad. And I can tell you that the reason why the studies show that testosterone levels drop in new dads is probably lack of sleep, because I kept everything the same except my sleep. You know, I kept my diet the same, kept my exercise routine the same, still had that drop in my testosterone. And I can tell you, I think it's down to the sleep that new dads have. Still well above average, because I'm doing everything else right. But I thought that was really interesting.

I think that's interesting to come back on that, because I've just been studying this, because I'm writing a chapter on fatherhood myself. From the studies that I've seen, men's testosterone, from what I've seen, so I'm really interested in your thoughts on this, they actually start to drop in response to the female partner becoming pregnant, actually before the baby is born, as if nature is somehow preparing fathers for their new, well, why it would do that other than nature's design. But my reading of it was that, yeah, I agree, I mean, I have had sleep hell. My daughters, I've got grown up daughters, they were much better sleepers. I was a younger man as well, but my boys, all of them absolute shockers for sleep. Sleep was horrendous and not helped, and this is another conversation when it comes to the gender pay gap, not helped by the fact that my wife breastfed them on demand, which is what the NHS says to do, good for mum, reduces her risk of ovarian cancer, reduces the risk of breast cancer, good for baby, makes it less likely that they'll struggle with obesity when they're old and all the rest of it. Bad news is how on earth would a mum breastfeeding on demand for the first 12 months of baby's life have any meaningful sense of employment is beyond me, because mum goes to feed the baby, she could be there for four hours, literally, or 20, who knows? I can't feed the baby because it doesn't want me. Oh, express the milk, stick it in a bottle, doesn't want a bottle, it just wants mum, mum's smell, all the rest of it. So that's a separate thing. But the sleep was awful. So I understand testosterone would drop for that reason, but my reading of research is that it drops anyway because nature intends for dads to be part of the caregiving role. Do you think that has credibility as an argument, or do you think that's nonsense and it's totally sleep?

I think it's never totally one thing. But what I've noticed in my body is there was no drop in testosterone until Max was born.

Interesting.

And then the only thing that changed was my sleep. And I could, let's say I got a week of great sleep and then I decided to get some bad sleep. I could replicate this change in my testosterone, I believe.

Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting one. And one for me to go away and think about, because I did think this reading the research, actually, is this a sleep thing? Because I've been through sleep hell with my boys, or is it, it appears that nature does that anyway. That seems to be accepted from what I could read, but that's interesting. That's very interesting.

I could throw some numbers at you, just in case.

Yeah, good, good, do it, do it.

If anyone's familiar with testosterone, we're talking about total testosterone. We're not talking about free testosterone at the moment, but average for healthy Western men at the moment is probably about 18.4 nanomoles per litre, according to one study that wanted to find out what is the median average for healthy men. Mine was about 30 before my son was born, and then it went down to 26, but that means it's still significantly higher than the average. If nature's trying to reduce my testosterone levels for my son, why is it still so much higher than average? Well, the answer is because of all those lifestyle factors.

And that is very high from what I'm not the, I have the in-depth knowledge on testosterone that you have, but I can, from what I know, vouch for the fact that that is a very high level. So before we sum up the podcast in a couple of sentences, which I think is a great way to end what's always a fascinating conversation, you put diet at the top of your list. That's what's changed since you were last on the podcast as the most important thing. So for anybody listening to this thinking, okay, you know, I'm imagining it could be less sugar. I'm imagining it's something to do with ultra-prose. Maybe I just need to not worry about sugar, but as long as I'm making my own food from scratch, I can still cane the fruit juice. What would you say are the big couple of diet must do changes a guy should make if he's looking to increase his testosterone?

It would be three things. One would be the amount of carbohydrate you're eating on a daily basis is probably the single biggest factor. Not only in the long run, do carbohydrates that raise our blood sugars contribute to insulin resistance, which is probably the reason why most men now have low testosterone, but even a large dose of glucose, and we are talking large, 75 grams of glucose has been found to reduce testosterone in healthy men by 25 percent. So that is a really significant reduction in testosterone. Well, 25 grams of glucose, that's two medium leukosates. In fact, it's less than two medium leukosates. I know people who would sit and drink that at work. Yeah. So that's a massive reduction in testosterone, and it's very, very quickly. So we want to reduce the carbohydrates that raise our blood sugar levels to keep our metabolic health really good. And then to avoid being hungry, you eat more natural fats, including the fats that are demonized, like saturated fat. There really isn't a scientific reason to avoid saturated fat. It's all about the context of is it processed or not. And then the other thing is get greenery on every plate. So we've got the vitamins and minerals that our body needs. So the kind of diet that I see takes men from below average or average levels of testosterone to really, really healthy levels of testosterone, is reducing the carbohydrates that raise our blood sugar levels, eating plenty of natural fats, the kind that we get in dairy, the kind we get in meat, avocados, fish, that kind of thing, and make sure there's dark green vegetables on every plate.

Right. So last thing, because I'm conscious of your time and I'm so grateful for the time you've given for this podcast, so that we don't get confused on carbohydrates. I expect that's where I would fall down on. I think it's easy to say, oh, well, yeah, so I'll have a little bit less white, but I'll swap from white to brown. I mean, I do that. I'll eat a bit less bread, a bit less pasta. But actually, what are we talking about here? How far does one go with carbs? Few less roast potatoes, few less chips. Do we eat any chips? Any crisps at all? What are we talking about? Give me some examples then. Like, is a switch from white to brown enough? How many carbs should we be eating? Tomato, what should we not be eating then? Give me some carb specifics.

Cool. Yeah, happy to share that. So everyone knows I'm not a dietician, and diet, of course, is all about personal aims. But what the science tells us is, what we're talking about when I talk about carbohydrates in this context is it's things that break down into glucose that raise our blood sugar levels. So if you're in the UK, that's quite easy, because it is literally labelled carbohydrates on the food thing, because it's fibre. We don't include in that. So although it's an oversimplification, I'm literally talking about what's called carbohydrates in food intake. Now, if you follow the nutritional guidelines in the UK or the US, you'll probably end up eating around 250 grams of carbohydrate a day because you're basing your meals, making sure you have carbohydrates for every meal. Right, so less than 120 grams a day is generally considered low carb. And that's when testosterone levels will start to increase. So that probably wouldn't include bread. I'm not talking about swapping to brown. I'm like talking about not eating bread. But when carbohydrate intake gets below a certain threshold, whether it's through fasting or from just avoiding eating carbohydrates, then your body switches from using glucose as an energy source to using ketones and fatty acids to an energy source. This is called ketosis. That is what turbocharges testosterone in studies of men. So in 12 weeks, some studies have found men doubled their testosterone. Men who already had healthy levels of testosterone had increases, like big increases. And for me, when I started doing a ketogenic diet, my testosterone in the mornings went from 20.4 nanomoles per litre. 12 weeks later, it was up to about 23, 24. And after eight months, it just started to sit around 30. And that's the kind of levels of testosterone that our ancestors, our great granddads probably had before the dietary guidelines started talking about reducing fat and eating carbohydrates for every meal.

Right. So things to avoid then, specifically?

Things that raise your blood sugars is going to be bread, pasta, rice, porridge. There's... I worked with a man a little while ago, and he asked me to share his story. So this man, when I met him, he was following a low-fat diet, which had been recommended by a health care professional. And while, of course, we don't want to, you know, you need to take what your health care professionals say, I would, but you also have to look at the context of what he was trying to achieve. At the time, he had type 2 diabetes, he had high blood pressure, and he had very low testosterone levels. So he decided to start following a low-carbohydrate diet. And what happened in his particular case is he swapped his normal breakfast from porridge, raisins and a banana, to salmon, cream cheese and an avocado. Normally at 11 o'clock each day, he would have to take a second blood pressure medication because of the level of blood pressure he had, but he that day did not have to take that medication. He did this with the supervision of his doctor. He hasn't had to take that medication since. And over the following two weeks, his testosterone levels went from a very low 4.4 to a 9, and then they just carried on going up and up and up for as long as he stopped eating the porridge, the rice and the bread.

I've just had porridge for breakfast.

It's really common because the approach at the moment is something like, it's a complex carbohydrate that releases energy slowly, but it is still the fuel source that if you want to boost testosterone, you don't necessarily want to be running on that fuel source. Of course, look, there's tons of caveats to this, which is if you're doing a tonne of exercise, if you were weight lifting, you might say, well, Ryan, I want the sugar for the glycogen stores. I understand that, but the average person is not lifting weights four times a week. The average person is sitting down at a desk all day now in the UK. So what we actually don't want is for our body to have to process this sugar. So I'll give you one quick example. But if you have eight pints of blood, which the average person does, how much sugar is in your entire blood? How many grams of sugar?

Literally no idea.

Yep. If you had to take a stab at it, do you want to take a random stab at it?

In terms of what weights are we talking about here?

Just by grams or? Teaspoons, anything you like.

Oh, I really have no idea. How did you tell me, Tommy? I'm really...

So a healthy measure of blood, if you went to see a doctor and they drew some blood, a healthy measure of blood glucose or blood sugar would be around five millimoles per litre. If you extrapolate that up to five litres, you're at four and a half to five grams of sugar in your entire system. So if you eat a hundred grams of oats, and you're given 60 grams of glucose from that, that is many, many times more sugar than your body wants in blood. So where does it go? Insulin is released and it's packed away, and lots of it is stored as fat. And so we are constantly eating the kind of food that is reducing testosterone levels in men. And then we wonder why men today have much lower levels of testosterone than they did just a few generations ago. And it can often be quickly reversed just by changing the kind of food we eat. Wow.

So amazing, always fascinating. And for those listening to this podcast, remind us of your book again that comes out in November.

It does, How to Help Him, The Book for Women, Worried About a Man.

Fabulous, fabulous, fabulous. And just if you could give us a two-sentence message of hope for anybody listening to this. A couple of sentences, just a message of encouragement.

It would be what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for others, so don't give up just because you haven't found the right thing for you. It is out there. Keep on the search. Brilliant.

Love that. Absolute pleasure having you on the show, Ryan. Thank you so much for your time. It's been great to see you again.

Thank you, Andrew. Thank you, Men on Show.

Thank you for listening to Andrew Pain's Men on Show. If you could leave us a five star rating and short review, it would be really, really appreciated. It helps us get this important message out to more people that need to hear it the most. See you on the next episode. Thank you for tuning in.